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	<title>Comments for Law by the Numbers</title>
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	<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers</link>
	<description>Law School Rankings, Demographics, Teaching and Assessment</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:20:16 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Assessing Assessment by Curcio on Legal Education Assessment « Legal Informatics Blog</title>
		<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/2009/11/06/assessing-assessment/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Curcio on Legal Education Assessment « Legal Informatics Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/?p=248#comment-39</guid>
		<description>[...] HT Professor Gary Rosin at Law by the Numbers. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] HT Professor Gary Rosin at Law by the Numbers. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Flat Demand and More Law Schools by How Strong are New Law Schools? &#171; Law by the Numbers</title>
		<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/2009/10/02/flat-demand-and-more-law-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>How Strong are New Law Schools? &#171; Law by the Numbers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/?p=218#comment-32</guid>
		<description>[...] Law by the Numbers Law Schools Rankings, Assessment and Demographics      &#171; Flat Demand and More Law Schools [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Law by the Numbers Law Schools Rankings, Assessment and Demographics      &laquo; Flat Demand and More Law Schools [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do We Need More Law Schools? by Flat Demand and More Law Schools &#171; Law by the Numbers</title>
		<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/2009/09/24/do-we-need-more-law-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Flat Demand and More Law Schools &#171; Law by the Numbers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 22:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/?p=163#comment-31</guid>
		<description>[...] Do We Need More Law Schools, I commented on the number of new law schools that have been in the works. In that post, I used the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Do We Need More Law Schools, I commented on the number of new law schools that have been in the works. In that post, I used the [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Part 5 the Legal Education at the Crossroads conference by Legal Education at the Crossroads Assessment Conference Resources &#171; Legal Informatics Blog</title>
		<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/2009/09/24/part-5-the-legal-education-at-the-crossroads-conference/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Education at the Crossroads Assessment Conference Resources &#171; Legal Informatics Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 17:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/?p=154#comment-26</guid>
		<description>[...] The ABA Student Learning Outcomes Subcommittee&#8217;s draft of the revised ABA &#8220;300&#8243; Standards, from the ABA Standards for the Approval of Law Schools, is available, as presented by President Steve Bahls (see President Bahls&#8217;s presentation here) (HT Vice President Rensberger); [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The ABA Student Learning Outcomes Subcommittee&#8217;s draft of the revised ABA &#8220;300&#8243; Standards, from the ABA Standards for the Approval of Law Schools, is available, as presented by President Steve Bahls (see President Bahls&#8217;s presentation here) (HT Vice President Rensberger); [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do We Need More Law Schools? by Rick Bales</title>
		<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/2009/09/24/do-we-need-more-law-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Bales</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/?p=163#comment-23</guid>
		<description>I agree with disaffected.  &quot;Demand&quot; should be measured by the number of legal employers able to hire law graduates at a living wage, not the number of applicants to law school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with disaffected.  &#8220;Demand&#8221; should be measured by the number of legal employers able to hire law graduates at a living wage, not the number of applicants to law school.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do We Need More Law Schools? by disaffected</title>
		<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/2009/09/24/do-we-need-more-law-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>disaffected</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/?p=163#comment-22</guid>
		<description>Um, wouldn&#039;t the only relevant statistic be the number of lawyers who are practicing? All this number reveals is the number of people who are willing to sign up for guaranteed loans that are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. The number of JDs as  evidence of need for lawyers is about useful a measure as counting liar loans as evidence of a healthy real estate market.

* * *</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, wouldn&#8217;t the only relevant statistic be the number of lawyers who are practicing? All this number reveals is the number of people who are willing to sign up for guaranteed loans that are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. The number of JDs as  evidence of need for lawyers is about useful a measure as counting liar loans as evidence of a healthy real estate market.</p>
<p>* * *</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do We Need More Law Schools? by Anon</title>
		<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/2009/09/24/do-we-need-more-law-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 04:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/?p=163#comment-21</guid>
		<description>This is the national picture.  But what about local markets?  Even if we don&#039;t need another law school in the U.S. as a whole, there might be a lot of areas of the U.S. that could really use a(nother) law school -- perhaps including Boise and Dallas.  I&#039;m not saying those two areas have particular need, but it wouldn&#039;t surprise me.  Maybe this is a case of decisions that makes sense at the local level adding up to a macro-level picture that doesn&#039;t make sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the national picture.  But what about local markets?  Even if we don&#8217;t need another law school in the U.S. as a whole, there might be a lot of areas of the U.S. that could really use a(nother) law school &#8212; perhaps including Boise and Dallas.  I&#8217;m not saying those two areas have particular need, but it wouldn&#8217;t surprise me.  Maybe this is a case of decisions that makes sense at the local level adding up to a macro-level picture that doesn&#8217;t make sense.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Part 5 the Legal Education at the Crossroads conference by Scott</title>
		<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/2009/09/24/part-5-the-legal-education-at-the-crossroads-conference/comment-page-1/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 04:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/?p=154#comment-20</guid>
		<description>Did Bahls say something in the presentation to lead you to the interpretation in your final paragraph about a requirement that multiple assessments be taken during individual courses?

I&#039;m not seeing that in my reading of the proposed standards.  The phrase &quot;throughout the course of the students&#039; studies&quot; seems to refer to the entire course of study through law school, not to individual courses.  The examples of internal assessment measures given in the interpretation seem to be pretty typical law school stuff.

Maybe the word &quot;variety&quot; might produce the need for changes at some schools.  It is hard to tell from the interpretations what that means.  Most law schools already employ a &quot;variety&quot; if you compare final exams with measures used in skills classes and seminar classes (final papers, etc.).

Your quoted portion appears to have been adapted from standards used by colleges of pharmacy.  Maybe the phrase has a specific meaning in that field that leads to a conclusion that law schools would have to drastically change their internal assessment methods.

The two aspects that stood out to me as potentially big changes were the possible use of the words &quot;require&quot; and &quot;every&quot; in 302(c) and the use of external assessment measures beyond bar passage (job placement, etc.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did Bahls say something in the presentation to lead you to the interpretation in your final paragraph about a requirement that multiple assessments be taken during individual courses?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not seeing that in my reading of the proposed standards.  The phrase &#8220;throughout the course of the students&#8217; studies&#8221; seems to refer to the entire course of study through law school, not to individual courses.  The examples of internal assessment measures given in the interpretation seem to be pretty typical law school stuff.</p>
<p>Maybe the word &#8220;variety&#8221; might produce the need for changes at some schools.  It is hard to tell from the interpretations what that means.  Most law schools already employ a &#8220;variety&#8221; if you compare final exams with measures used in skills classes and seminar classes (final papers, etc.).</p>
<p>Your quoted portion appears to have been adapted from standards used by colleges of pharmacy.  Maybe the phrase has a specific meaning in that field that leads to a conclusion that law schools would have to drastically change their internal assessment methods.</p>
<p>The two aspects that stood out to me as potentially big changes were the possible use of the words &#8220;require&#8221; and &#8220;every&#8221; in 302(c) and the use of external assessment measures beyond bar passage (job placement, etc.).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do We Need More Law Schools? by Scott</title>
		<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/2009/09/24/do-we-need-more-law-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 03:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/?p=163#comment-19</guid>
		<description>Just a few thoughts:

How is the number of JD&#039;s awarded an accurate measure of demand?  It&#039;s a measure of the students accepted by existing schools.  It doesn&#039;t take into account changing admissions policies (e.g. raising standards for ranking purposes).  Couldn&#039;t it be argued that the data you present might actually be a result of existing law schools not meeting the demand?  Maybe that decrease in JD&#039;s awarded means that there were other potential law students out there who weren&#039;t admitted.

It also doesn&#039;t take into account regional demand that might not have been accounted for or met by existing schools.

A more accurate measure for demand would probably be LSDAS/LSAT data.  That would more accurately tell you the number of people interested in attending law school.

Even if you used the LSDAS data or even if you stayed with the JD data, is a short term blip in demand really what decision makers at potential new law schools are going to base decisions on?  Wouldn&#039;t they base their decision on much longer patterns of and projections for demand?

One thing that is missing from this discussion (but seems implicit in many such discussions) is that you are not talking about demand but demand by a certain level of credentialed student.  After all, there are plenty of law school applicants every year who do not get into law school.  To some extent, the worry over additional law schools is about who is qualified to go to law schools (or put another way, how elite should legal education be), but few people seem to want to say that openly.  Additionally, all these new laws schools seem to be filling their seats.  Why isn&#039;t that better evidence of what the demand is?  It seems like it is, unless you are really talking about students with certain levels of credentials (credentials which may have relevance to law school performance, but may or may not have relevance to lawyering ability).

Another thing that is missing is the &#039;so what&#039; part of the discussion.  Let&#039;s say you are right and the demand for law schools has not grown.  Why does that mean that existing law schools should fill the need and not face competition from new schools?  Maybe UNT-Dallas feels it (future) students and its community would be better served if its (future) students went to school there in Dallas rather than having to go somewhere else.

I think you begin to address that issue at the end of the post when you switch from talking about demand for law schools (as measured by JD&#039;s awarded) and start talking about demand for high paid lawyers.  The methods by which students at new schools pay for their legal education (lots of loans) and how well that method matches up with their career prospects is a definite concern.

The &#039;so what&#039; question also brings us back around to the issue of qualifications.  One could argue that new schools largely fill their seats by admitting students who would otherwise not have been admitted anywhere while competing with established schools for students on a small to marginal basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a few thoughts:</p>
<p>How is the number of JD&#8217;s awarded an accurate measure of demand?  It&#8217;s a measure of the students accepted by existing schools.  It doesn&#8217;t take into account changing admissions policies (e.g. raising standards for ranking purposes).  Couldn&#8217;t it be argued that the data you present might actually be a result of existing law schools not meeting the demand?  Maybe that decrease in JD&#8217;s awarded means that there were other potential law students out there who weren&#8217;t admitted.</p>
<p>It also doesn&#8217;t take into account regional demand that might not have been accounted for or met by existing schools.</p>
<p>A more accurate measure for demand would probably be LSDAS/LSAT data.  That would more accurately tell you the number of people interested in attending law school.</p>
<p>Even if you used the LSDAS data or even if you stayed with the JD data, is a short term blip in demand really what decision makers at potential new law schools are going to base decisions on?  Wouldn&#8217;t they base their decision on much longer patterns of and projections for demand?</p>
<p>One thing that is missing from this discussion (but seems implicit in many such discussions) is that you are not talking about demand but demand by a certain level of credentialed student.  After all, there are plenty of law school applicants every year who do not get into law school.  To some extent, the worry over additional law schools is about who is qualified to go to law schools (or put another way, how elite should legal education be), but few people seem to want to say that openly.  Additionally, all these new laws schools seem to be filling their seats.  Why isn&#8217;t that better evidence of what the demand is?  It seems like it is, unless you are really talking about students with certain levels of credentials (credentials which may have relevance to law school performance, but may or may not have relevance to lawyering ability).</p>
<p>Another thing that is missing is the &#8216;so what&#8217; part of the discussion.  Let&#8217;s say you are right and the demand for law schools has not grown.  Why does that mean that existing law schools should fill the need and not face competition from new schools?  Maybe UNT-Dallas feels it (future) students and its community would be better served if its (future) students went to school there in Dallas rather than having to go somewhere else.</p>
<p>I think you begin to address that issue at the end of the post when you switch from talking about demand for law schools (as measured by JD&#8217;s awarded) and start talking about demand for high paid lawyers.  The methods by which students at new schools pay for their legal education (lots of loans) and how well that method matches up with their career prospects is a definite concern.</p>
<p>The &#8216;so what&#8217; question also brings us back around to the issue of qualifications.  One could argue that new schools largely fill their seats by admitting students who would otherwise not have been admitted anywhere while competing with established schools for students on a small to marginal basis.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Do We Need More Law Schools? by CU Alum</title>
		<link>http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/2009/09/24/do-we-need-more-law-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>CU Alum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 01:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://uberlaw.net/LawNumbers/?p=163#comment-18</guid>
		<description>How many of the 25 newly-accredited schools are actually new?  Did some of them previously operate without accreditation?  When a previously unaccredited school gets the ABA&#039;s approval, the total number of law students doesn&#039;t change.  All that changes is the number that would be counted under this methodology.

California and some other states allow graduates of non-ABA schools to take their bar exams; as a result there are quite a few law schools which have not been sanctioned by the ABA.  Some of them must aspire to become ABA schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How many of the 25 newly-accredited schools are actually new?  Did some of them previously operate without accreditation?  When a previously unaccredited school gets the ABA&#8217;s approval, the total number of law students doesn&#8217;t change.  All that changes is the number that would be counted under this methodology.</p>
<p>California and some other states allow graduates of non-ABA schools to take their bar exams; as a result there are quite a few law schools which have not been sanctioned by the ABA.  Some of them must aspire to become ABA schools.</p>
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